Boundaries & the Self-Worth Needed to See Them

Anne: Hello, this is Coffee, Tea and Consciousness, and I am Anne.

Mel: I'm Mel. Welcome. Thanks for joining us.

Anne: Yes. And we are going to hit on the topic of boundaries, 'cause that's been a big one that has been coming up for me for a while, but it's really hit a peak. And once you see it, you can't unsee it. So I'm just gonna go in with what happened last week.

Mel: Give it to us.

Anne: Okay. So on Monday, there's a hummingbird outside. On Monday, my daughter got into an accident. Luckily she was not hurt, nor did she hit anyone else. It was just an accident with herself. And I'll just say this, it has nothing to do with it, but insurance companies really like to just total a car. It doesn't matter how big the damage is or not. But anyway, that is neither here nor there. Then on Tuesday, my mother-in-law — she got up too fast or something and ripped plumbing out of the wall. So that was — and she's tiny, so I —

Mel: And she's small. She's a really small human. She is in no way big enough to be ripping plumbing shit out of showers.

Anne: Yeah, so that was crazy. And so we had to replace a pipe and they had to cut into drywall and all the things. But the big thing — a lot of things are just assumed that I'm gonna take responsibility for and fix or go get, whatever, because I stay at home. And also I've been working through my worth. I used to do those things because I felt it proved my worth, right, because I'm making everyone else's life easier. But even if you're wanting to prove your worth, it doesn't mean you fucking want to do it. And so then the attitude starts, right? Because you're doing things that are not yours to do. So with the daughter's car accident, of course we have to deal with it — tow truck, calling insurance, putting in the claim. And granted she can't do those things, but it was just one more thing stacked on. And I was angry about the plumbing, and it's not anger at his mother, it's just anger at the situation and that it turned into a thousand-dollar project to fix. So now either I need to become a drywaller or find a drywaller. Well, I don't want to do either. And then the tipping point really was Friday, my —

Mel: Sorry, let me interrupt. We could call this the Mel and Annie Bit Show.

Anne: It could be, yes.

Mel: Ha.

Anne: So then on Friday, my daughter needed an iPad cover for her school stuff. I go to Target — it's a hundred dollars. I'm not paying a hundred dollars. So I'm like, I'll just go to Best Buy. But when you're driving around the Atlanta area, any small mileage, even nine miles, is gonna take you at least half an hour. So it's half an hour to get there, half an hour to get home — that's an extra hour out of my day to go get a goddamn iPad case that she knew she needed on Tuesday. So I do it. But as I'm driving there, I'm angry at the situation, angry that I have to do it. But the alternative seems worse than just doing it, because I know if I don't come home with it, I'm gonna get a lot of — because she's got the anxiety —

Mel: Yeah.

Anne: I'm gonna get all of those feelings, and it's a struggle and I don't really want to deal with it. So there were so many times I'm like, just turn around, go home. And I kept ignoring myself. I kept saying to spirit, I'm just gonna do it this one time and then I'm gonna have a discussion with her. I just don't wanna deal with the attitude and the fallout of it. And when she's like that, there is no way to have a conversation. She shuts you down. She's like, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. So on Saturday I had the discussion with the husband — well, I talked to you first because I wanted to get my anger out of having all of these things put on me. Or — I allowed all of those things to be put on me.

Mel: Good job taking responsibility.

Anne: Yes. But it's so easy to just blame. But anyway —

Mel: I love that.

Anne: It's the blame game.

Mel: Blame game again.

Anne: So I wanted to get all of that out because I have found that with my husband, when I lose my shit — and it's not even always at him or about him, it's never really about him in all reality — he takes it as if it is. And he finally admitted that when he feels attacked, or whatever, he wants to run. So I was trying to avoid that on Saturday. I got a lot of it out with you and I came at it differently. I wasn't crying, I wasn't doing all the things I like to do. And he still just sat there and said nothing. So after a few minutes of that, I just got up and left. I'm not gonna sit here for you to say nothing — I can go about my day, I've got my thing out. And then we didn't talk the rest of the day.

Mel: Much calmer.

Anne: It's really quite unfortunate. So on Sunday I broached the subject, and I told him — it was basically assumed I was gonna take care of the plumber and the drywall and getting all that done. And I'm like, I'm not doing that. I don't want to do any of those things. So you find the drywaller. And I let myself get to this point where I wanna rip skulls — like the guy in Breakfast Club, crack skulls or something. That's where I get. So I'm on chat and I'm like, so what do I need to do so I don't get to that point? And they're like, well, you need to really take a step back, because you've now entered the world you don't wanna go into.

Mel: Twilight zone.

Anne: Yes. And it's listening to your gut. So it did give me some good perspective. If somebody asks you to do something, say, well, let me see and I'll get back to you. Don't answer immediately — sit on it and see how it makes you feel. Does it make you angry? Does it make you feel like you're picking up pieces for somebody else and you're not in the mood to do it because it's not yours? What is motivating you to do it? And this weekend was — and he needs to get in the habit too, because it goes to this assumption that I'm gonna take it on instead of asking, "Hey, would you be willing to call the plumber?" Sure, I can call a plumber, I've got his number in my phone. That's fine. But when it's not asked, it's just put on my plate and I don't want to do it. So I've become more conscious of it, and this weekend was a good start. And they did say some of the people around you might get angry because they're so used to you doing the stuff — they might have a harder time at it than you.

Mel: Yeah.

Anne: And I do think that's going to be true, especially the daughter.

Mel: Well, it is tricky. When I used to run this group called Your Turn, I would say we have trained everyone in our lives — maybe many of us, especially women, not only women — that we're their bitch. We will do whatever needs to be done, whether you stay home or not. I know people who work and they still handle all the plumbers and the other shit. So it isn't about a stay-at-home wife or not — it's that many of us have been trained, because we were trained as girls, to do the work. We take on the responsibility. It is literally our job to make lives easier for the men around us. Now, right, wrong or otherwise — and I'm sure men would say there's an experience there for them too, and that's true. So we've created this massive problem for ourselves. So it's true — when you start to put boundaries up, I would say the boundary isn't "I won't do it." The boundary is: you need to ask me. Could you ask instead of assume?

Anne: Well, and that's what I said. And then I get the choice. And I get to choose.

Mel: Right. And then I can decide for myself, because I have autonomy over what I do with my day, whether you think I should or shouldn't. So we have — I would say we have an energy, if we look at it right, from the energy perspective — of being taken advantage of, even if it's from people we know and love and who love us. And often —

Anne: Well, and it usually is from people that you know — in my case, it's my family.

Mel: Yeah, for sure. It's people that love you most. And the expectation is: this is what you're going to do. And it's hard, I'd say, when you add "I am a stay-at-home mother" — well, that is your responsibility, what else do you literally do with your day? Again, the boundary is: could you please ask?

Anne: That's the biggest thing, I think — instead of just assuming somebody's gonna take on your stuff and do it for you.

Mel: So I used to think I didn't really have to do much physically. When we first had our awakening, I believed boundaries would come up if I changed the energy about me — I didn't think I had to speak them out loud. I have a friend who was talking about boundaries long before I was. She loves to cook, loves to bake, loves to make treats that are also healthy. She and her partner go on camping and rafting trips, and there was always this guy who'd come and never bring any food — just assumed everyone would have extra. This had been going on for years. Before one trip, she said to her partner, "Hey, you need to let him know I'm not bringing extra food." It wasn't that they couldn't — it was, I don't want to. It doesn't matter that I cook — everyone brings their own food for themselves or their couple. Sometimes they'd have a shared meal planned out beforehand. But this guy would just come and assume he could eat everyone's food, and hers especially, because she's a pretty good cook.

Anne: So I'm curious — when she finally said "we're not — he needs to bring his own stuff" — did he bring his own stuff?

Mel: No. Fuck no, he didn't. They still fed him.

Anne: Then he didn't learn anything.

Mel: Well, she didn't either, really. She learned that her partner shared. Why are you being such a jerk? How many times have you heard that when you put a boundary up, someone says, "why you being such a jerk, mom" — that might sound like a jerk to you, but the truth is, for me, I need to be a jerk right now. Even if it looks terrible, even if this guy's gonna go hungry all week. Not my actual problem. We warned you beforehand. Now you still don't bring it, because you know in the end I'll share. Which everyone did — not just her, but her partner was willing to share too.

Anne: Well, because you don't want to see somebody hungry.

Mel: And you don't want to be such a jerk. Why couldn't you just bring more? Why can't you just go overboard to accommodate someone who doesn't want to do for themselves? So now she has a problem with this guy constantly trying to take their stuff, and they go on this trip annually. So the year she finally decided "I'm not gonna do that anymore," she made sure — hey, let's let him know, I don't want him to get there and assume it's gonna be like before. So they told him. And she came back and was like, he ate my bars — these meal bars, out on the river — again. And she'd say, why am I such an ass about it? What is it about this? Because we've lacked boundaries our whole lives. So now it does feel like being an asshole. Why are you such a jerk? Why can't you just do it this one time? Why do you gotta make a big deal out of it now, when you've been doing it all these years?

Anne: Right, it was just assumed. Everything was an assumption. I was thinking about Tony, and I allowed all of this — this is all on me.

Mel: Of course you did. Yes, for sure. We all allowed it, but we've been trained to do it too.

Anne: I just thought he needs to go to work. Granted, yeah, he's bringing the money in, but I thought what he did was so much more important than what I did. So it's not only boundaries, it's also self-worth — knowing that just because I'm not bringing in the paycheck doesn't mean I'm any less than he is.

Mel: That's the stepping stone. The energy of it is: all of a sudden I feel worthy of my own time, worthy enough to make decisions for myself. Now that I see I'm worthy of my own time, I have to set these boundaries up. And now when you set them up, you look like a big fat jerk. Everyone is mad — maybe not everyone, but a lot of people are mad. If you're being called a jerk a lot, it's probably because you got your boundaries up.

Anne: Yeah.

Mel: But self-worth comes first, because beforehand you didn't even think you should be asked. So you couldn't set a boundary before you had your self-worth, because you didn't even know it was one. It's a building block. So our friend — she had this huge issue with her partner, this big issue with the guy, and this big issue within herself, because she's like — why do I feel so strongly that I don't want to share? I could share, we can afford to share. This isn't about not being able to take enough — I just don't want that, and that's never a good enough reason. I only want to be responsible for myself. So the next year rolls around, and this time she was like, here's your food.

Anne: Right.

Mel: So to make it different, she made her partner have his food and she had hers separately. If you want to share your food with your friend, that's on you. Last time it was their food, made for the couple of them. And he decided he was gonna share. Fine, feel free to share this time, but this is my food — my food is separate. And again, she felt like an asshole the whole time, because of course this guy did not bring his own food. Now I'd say his job was to push her to that. The energy behind it is: thanks for showing me where I've got this lack of boundaries. Now that I know, I'm allowed to say no, sorry, those are mine. And you're allowed to feel however you feel about it.

Anne: He still didn't.

Mel: We have another friend who does this with her kids — she does not make them share. If her kids have a special treat and friends come over, she doesn't make them share their candy, explaining: they're gonna have feelings about it watching you eat your yummy sweet-and-sour thing, and you don't want to share, it's yours, you don't have to. But they also get to have feelings about it and express them. So now — self-worth, then boundary, then the next step is voicing what your boundary is — but now you have to be able to hear their feelings about your boundaries and still stick to what's right for you.

Anne: Yeah.

Mel: Right. So then it's — how do you do that?

Anne: Yeah, there'll be testing.

Mel: Testing you all the time. Spirit's gonna make sure people are testing you constantly.

Anne: The big frustration with my daughter is that she doesn't want to hear my feelings — she wants to shut them down as quickly as they come up and blow them off. Very much like my husband — he doesn't know what to do, doesn't want to deal with it, so he likes to run. I said, she's exactly like you, you two should sit down and have a conversation about that. Because it's hard when all I'm wanting to do is voice my frustration — I'm not looking for you to solve it, I'm just trying to let my voice be heard, and neither one of you are willing to listen to it.

Mel: Right. But you still get to hold the same boundary.

Anne: Right. I would like to be able to share how I'm feeling and why I'm frustrated, because I get to hear when you guys are frustrated — I sit there and listen. Should I start running away too?

Mel: Maybe. I don't know the answer to that, but I'd say there's something there for you — because obviously they both have this pattern. You start to share your feelings, and it goes back to a self-worth thing — are my feelings not worthy of being shared? So now you've got another layer of self-worth to work on. Your feelings are worth being shared. Share them all day long.

Anne: Right.

Mel: You want to listen or not? I'm gonna walk right behind you and keep sharing them, until I'm blue in the face and all shared out. I think this is just another layer of self-worth — am I now worthy enough to be heard? You might not like it, I don't really care, I'm gonna keep saying it, even when you say "I already know, I already know."

Anne: Yes, my god, you're just like, shut up.

Mel: So your boundary is: no, I'm gonna say my stuff. You can run away if you want, but I'm gonna keep saying it. Every time you run away, it makes me say it louder.

Anne: And then I want to analyze — why do you like to run away from feelings?

Mel: Well, the question is maybe — how do you get through the point where, if they don't want to hear it, I don't want to chase you? You gotta be okay with: they don't want to hear my feelings and I'm still worthy of sharing them. So find someone else who'll listen. I'll always listen. I'll listen to them all day.

Anne: I have to be okay with that, I guess.

Mel: Although you already know that, that's why you don't really care.

Anne: Well, that's why I called you before I went and told him anything.

Mel: Right. So there is so often — I thought for a long time I've gotten myself to the place where I can handle you being angry with me, I can handle you not liking me. I can handle my mom and her episodes if I'm around her. I don't lose my shit like I used to. And then I finally know I'm at the next level of self-worth, because actually I don't even need that to be in my life anymore. Not that I don't want her in my life sometimes, but I don't need that in my life anymore. I'm so worthy that I don't have to hear it anymore.

Anne: Well, it doesn't need to be twenty-five calls in a day.

Mel: I don't know what the next level is. I'm sure spirit will show its face about it. But I've got that in a couple of instances — I literally don't care.

Mel: And sometimes I think that's a hard place to be. It's harder than being the bitch. Now it's like, I deserve better than that. I just do. I deserve to be treated better than that. And if you don't want to treat me better than that — okay. There's the door, or I'll shut my own door.

Mel: But even that, I had to battle Jimmy. He did not hear me for a long time. For me it's my mom — she cannot come over here unless I ask her. And then one time he did. I came home from something and here she was sitting in the living room. "Hi Melody," like a psychic. Like I was in a scary movie.

Anne: Mm. I'm leaving. Jimmy, you get to deal with her. That was your choice to bring her here.

Mel: Anyway, I know. And it was — and the other thing for me — he'd be like, "do you want me to go get her?" Yeah, but then I'm gonna have to bring her home too. So if you're gonna go get her, you gotta be prepared to have her here through the whole visit, however long we choose to be together. Then when it's time to leave, she doesn't want to leave, so she's always fighting about leaving.

Anne: Mm-hmm.

Mel: Then the whole way home, I get to hear about how awful I am for sending her back to this place she chose to move into of her own free will. My reserves are worn down, so I know now — it's not a drop-off, it's a roller coaster we've been on since before you even got in the car, because I've been hearing about whether you're coming or not.

Anne: Right.

Mel: So after he did that, he came home after me. She was just sitting at the house by herself. When he got there, I was losing my shit — you didn't respect my boundary. This woman has abused me my whole life. I've finally gotten to the point where I don't feel abused by her, but she's still trying. My energy reserves are locked and loaded — how much energy do I have to manage this experience with her? Do I have enough? No. You said yes. You don't know how much energy I have reserved. You don't get to say yes. This reminds me of you with your in-laws coming this weekend — it isn't about them particularly, but you didn't have the energy reserves.

Anne: Yeah.

Mel: To have them come stay at the house, and your husband, just like Jimmy, didn't respect your boundary.

Anne: Well, I wasn't even asked — I was just told after everything was already planned.

Mel: Right. So you didn't even really respect your own boundary. But yes, that was still in the anticipation.

Anne: And it's not a great time — he just started that job and doesn't have vacation built up yet. So it was a lot.

Mel: And then at the end the boundaries were pushed again, because now she ripped all the plumbing out of the bathroom wall. What is happening?

Anne: Right. And it's not even about that — it's about the assumption that I'm gonna come in and take over and do the things and get everything right. And I'm just not doing it. If we have a hole in the bathroom wall for years, so be it.

Mel: Yeah, it's fine. People live with holes in their walls. It is what it is. It takes some real — for me, this is for me — I gotta build up to it. My own energy reserves.

Anne: Well, and I've been spending all my reserves.

Mel: And then hold steady. You've been spending all your energy digging yourself out of the ditch you keep making.

Anne: Well, that's another thing I found — I keep digging up shit that doesn't need to be dug up. Part of it was fear, because my husband is sick, and I feel like if he could get in touch with his emotions we could go somewhere different than where we're headed. And that was all fear, but I didn't realize it at the time. I thought — this thing comes up, it triggers me, so let's look at it deeper. Well, I guess not everything that triggers you has to be dug deeper into, is what I'm being told.

Mel: Right.

Anne: And how do you know? I thought anything that triggered you was something to look at.

Mel: Okay, let's go back to what triggered you.

Anne: It was some stuff from the beginning of our marriage — because yet again I thought I was supposed to do all the things, and he would go to work and then a couple times a week go to the bar with the guys from work. I want to have friendships, and that's great, but we have three young kids and I need a break. So this came up because of a situation with one of my sons and his girlfriend — Tony doesn't like that — and it brought up some of that old stuff. But I think what I was trying to do was get him to feel his feelings more. Whereas obviously he doesn't want to, if he's running every time feelings come up. So I need to let it go.

Mel: But what were you triggered by, specifically? For the part about you continuing to dig this ditch — that was more like talking about you trying to get him to feel his feelings.

Anne: Yeah.

Mel: I wish we'd recorded that session.

Anne: Well, I think it was more for me to let it go, but I also wanted him to feel my feelings on it and understand why. One thing he said was, "you're always bringing up all this old shit, we've been together for twenty-seven years and you keep bringing up the bad stuff." And then it finally clicked for me — the stuff that keeps coming up isn't the happy times, and it sounds bad if you want to put it in a category, but it's because when you're burying your anger or your feelings, the ones that aren't happy, those are the ones that come up. When you're working through shit, you're not seeing the vacations and fun stuff, because that's not what you buried. What you buried is the stuff that doesn't feel good.

Mel: Right. It was fun to feel the fun stuff, the lovey parts. It was the parts that —

Anne: Right. But bearing the hard stuff you didn't deal with in the moment — that's what comes up when you're trying to move through where you're at. I'm sure it's hard to hear. He's taught me some lessons, so —

Mel: Right. You gotta find your worth. Back then you didn't think you were worthy enough to say the things, worthy enough to have time for yourself, which now you do. It's only taken twenty-seven years.

Anne: Right. Instead of dealing with it and talking to him in the moment, what I would do is get in my car — and I still do this, because I like to talk things out, and it feels weird just sitting in my room talking things out — so I like to drive. It's my coping mechanism, or just a way to work through the stuff. So what I'd do with that anger was get in the car, kids in with me, and just take off.

Mel: Well, it was giving you some space and time. Why do you think you used to mow the grass?

Anne: Yeah, I loved that. I was looking for a break.

Mel: Right, you were looking for a break — that was the closest break you could get. He wanted to mow the grass, remember? And you said, you're not taking that away from me, it's the only time I get away from the kids and the family. Annie used to do everything — you'd go to Annie's house and it was like, holy shit, everything was always done. It was pretty bananas. But again, back then you didn't know.

Anne: Yep.

Mel: And so in that, yes, Tony was helpful because he helped you eventually come to terms that, regardless of money, you're worthy of getting time for yourself. And now that you're there, you set the boundary, and now you're also worthy of being heard, but you can't make —

Anne: Well, and I actually figured out — I've worked ninety years. As a mom, you're on call twenty-four seven. He's only worked thirty-something years, but during our time with all the kids, it's been eight hours times three kids in twenty-four hours.

Mel: Right.

Anne: So add it up, it's ninety. I deserve a retirement.

Mel: Right. Early. Which I'm taking now.

Mel: Well, I think boundaries — you have to come to a self-worth thing, you have to know you deserve. But then setting them and holding them is hard. My mother-in-law passed away recently, and at her celebration of life, one of her friends shared that they used to pretend they were on a board — it was a book club, but they called it a board meeting. If anyone said, "hey, I need help with this," she'd say, "I can't, I've got my board meeting tonight."

Anne: Right, I got a board meeting.

Mel: And here's the thing I find fascinating — a book club, well, you could just miss that. But "board meeting" sounds important. She had to pretend it was a board meeting just so she could go to a book club meeting with her friends. That's sad, honestly — that this is what it took. And aren't we glad that when you and I die, no one's gonna say we didn't know how to set a boundary — they'll say we were pretty vocal about our boundaries because they affected us. I've been telling Jimmy for a long time — he loves to work out, it makes him feel better, and he'd probably be considered — if there were a label — kind of depressed. He doesn't get a lot of happy feelings naturally in him. But when he works out, he does.

Anne: We're draining him.

Mel: Right. So when we owned our business, after the first year, I was like — go figure out how to put that in your schedule. And he'd be like, "I can't do that, you'll be mad." No — try me.

Anne: So he was having a hard time setting a boundary too.

Mel: On his own behalf — and really it was for me too, because you could tell his energy was different when he hadn't been working out. Go make that hour for yourself — just not on Friday night, please. But otherwise, please go take care of yourself. He couldn't do that because he blamed it on me — "you're gonna be mad." I'm not. Let's try. He didn't want to try. It's easier for him to be a martyr than to risk finding out I'm not actually mad.

Anne: That's Tony. Well, and what he would do — when I started with the self-worth stuff and wasn't doing all the things this last year, we'd go weeks without talking. I'd say whatever, and —

Mel: Yeah, without talking. It was bananas.

Anne: What I found is I let my feelings build, and he can tell, and then it's like there's no more containing it — I'm boiling hot and it all spews. So there were times I was working through stuff and he's home, and I wouldn't even necessarily have said anything, but he can feel me and where I'm at, and it's not good.

Mel: Yeah.

Anne: He would go with the assumption — you're gonna be mad, or you are mad — so I'm not gonna talk to you. That was working, in a way, because I was always the one coming to him before. So it would be like a Monday with no talking, and then two weeks later on a Monday he'd finally have the courage to come and talk to me. We'd be good till about Friday, and then something else would happen and it would start again — it was a fucking cycle. It was awful. Do you know how hard it is to live in a house with somebody, getting coffee, and they're in the room next to you, and there's a wall between you by the coffee maker, and you don't want to turn your head and look at that person? It's hard. It was awful. My son came and said, "what's going on, dad says you're mad." And I'm like, how the fuck would he know? He hasn't even talked to me. He's making up a story.

Mel: Right. He knows nothing, he's decided. And by that point I'm probably mad now — it's been five days. At the beginning I was upset, not mad in the same way I am now. So if he was actually reading the energy, he was still taking it on as his own.

Anne: Yeah. I do think spirit played a hand in it, because we went to the beach and coming home was a five-hour drive of fucking silence. My mind was like, just talk, like you normally would — and it was like, nope, gotta be quiet.

Mel: Yeah, that'd be torture.

Anne: Which was so bizarre, and I was so angry by the time we got close to home — five hours.

Mel: So there's boundaries that are for working through stuff, and then there's boundaries of control. Think about the times you demand something of the kids — not to say it's not nice to have their room clean — but then there's the ones you're using as control. So there's healthy boundaries that help you figure out what's right for you, and then — do you even know what you like? What you want? What you're willing to do, what you're not willing to do? Or are you just going through the motions without questioning why — why is this bothering me, why do I need this boundary that feels so important — or is it just about what you're trying to control?

Anne: Well, the question of why has been a big one this last year — with my daughter in her senior year, coming to grips with this stage of my life being over, and what they'd call a midlife crisis. It's more about rediscovering who the hell I am, because I had my oldest at nineteen, then another at thirty, then the two boys around twenty-three and twenty-four.

Mel: Yeah.

Anne: That's a long period of giving yourself over to everybody else. And rediscovering who am I, what do I like — I don't even know.

Mel: Yeah, where you really didn't take any stock.

Mel: I went through a thing because my mom didn't let us sleep in — if we slept past eight she'd come wake us up. So I've had to be up early most of my growing up years. Then I had my first at twenty, and then when I met Jimmy — he's an early riser — I went through this phase of, I don't even know when I like to wake up, when I like to go to bed. What is my own body's rhythm? Turns out, between six and seven-thirty is naturally me. I like to go to sleep somewhere between ten and eleven. That's my natural rhythm — now that I've given myself time to explore it. I remember telling Jimmy — we always went to bed together, for the whole time we'd been married. And I said, I'm not gonna come to bed with you tonight. He was really upset — we've always gone to bed at the same time. I said, I'm trying to figure out when I actually want to go to sleep. It seems like such a silly thing, but deciding that for myself — I didn't even know I could decide that. And then he'd say when I got up "late," like eight o'clock —

Anne: Which I think is early.

Mel: He'd say, you got up late today. And I had to say — I'm still trying to find my own body's rhythm. I know it's late for you, you've been up since six, alarm at four-forty. I get that's late for you, but I don't know yet what's late for me, and what routine I like in the morning to be ready for the day. It took me a long time, and he wasn't terrible about it, but there was a "this is the way we do it" — no, this is the way I was trained to do it. I allowed that of myself, but now I'm curious about my own way of living. I really can't handle more than two things on my calendar a day.

Anne: One thing — that's my whole day sometimes. That's the only thing I can do.

Mel: Today I had two things going on and had to really focus. It took me time, and I had to set boundaries that said, I know this is different, but this is who I am.

Anne: Well I'm only doing two things.

Mel: I'm discovering who I actually am at fifty-two. It's taken me a long time — I used to make myself busy to look busy, so I could say I did something, so I could be seen as someone worthy of staying home all day. Actually, I did nothing.

Anne: Well, and I think that's a big thing — Tony, when he wasn't working, had to do stuff outside, he was trained that you don't waste your day away inside. So when he wasn't working he'd do different things and then have to talk about it so everyone would know he did — I've done that too. Look at me, I cleaned the house and took the kids here and there. But I think the biggest thing — beyond the boundaries and feelings and figuring out who you are — was also mourning. I did a lot of crying and mourning the loss of that part of me, that life. Not that I don't have kids, but that was a huge part of who I was, and mourning it and letting myself feel it instead of pushing it aside — I think that's bigger than people realize. I don't know if men feel it the same way, but women feel it a lot. That's a big part of your life, having kids. And now that I've mourned it, I'm so excited about the possibilities of what's coming next.

Mel: Yeah. And now it's hard to slow down and enjoy where you are, instead of looking forward to what you'll end up doing. It's tricky to slow down. I had five kids — I think my youngest broke me. Not that he was the easiest, he's got a great personality, fun kid to be around —

Anne: And he's still at home.

Mel: Still home, high school. So I didn't mourn the way you did. We'll go somewhere and see little boys around, and I think, gosh, I probably look like a creepy old weirdo making some face at them. I did enjoy that, but I've always felt like I should want certain things — like I should be excited when they all come over — and I'm like, I don't know that I'm excited, that actually sounds like a lot of work.

Anne: Yeah. I'm so done with kids. I can't even go to the neighborhood pool — I want to go when no one's there, because I don't want to look at a bunch of kids, hear the splashing. I know I sound like a dick, but I'm so beyond it. I'm thankful I don't have grandkids yet, because I wouldn't want to deal with it.

Mel: That's okay. I have grandkids and I sometimes struggle — I'm not far enough out of the responsibility of kids yet, that it's tricky to not — I don't feel done with the other part of me, and it's another thing that wants my energy. I want to give Jimmy energy when he comes home from work, I want to be ready and engaged with him. For years I gave so much of it during the day that by the time he got home I was too tired to deal with him. Now I enjoy having that, because he got to go be around humans.

Anne: I think I had some resentment — I always thought you don't have to deal with the kid aspect of it and their ridiculousness. And he'd say, don't you think the guys at work are like children too? Maybe, but it's different.

Mel: Yeah, but you get to go potty by yourself.

Anne: When you said "should" — I think, you feel like you should want to hang with the grandkids. But is it okay to feel like you don't want to? And who put that idea there?

Mel: I'm still working on that. I have this expectation of what a grandma looks like — from my own grandmothers. We didn't spend tons of time with one of them; she had six kids with a lot of kids of their own. My other grandmother — I don't remember ever staying at her house without a parent there. And I love them, I have to remind myself I still loved her even though I never spent the night at her house. She just wasn't that kind of grandma, nothing wrong with it. But I had this idea in my head of the Grammy I wanted to be — and that was during my "fulfilling everyone's expectation" days. So I'm still working through not being that thing I thought I'd be. Now I get exhausted — when I do watch the kids, I've got about five good hours, and I'm normal old Mel, we play, I'm everything I wanted to be — and then I'm exhausted, tired, and I'd come home and be an asshole for the rest of the night. That was really hard for Jimmy — I really want you to watch the grandkids too, but then you come home and you're a total dick to me, the house is a mess, you're too tired to do anything. They had a great time, I'm so glad, but by hour six someone's crying under the kitchen table and the other's acting like I punched them, because I stopped being that great Grammy I wanted to be. For me, it's an expectation I put on myself.

Anne: Well, and I don't have any of that, because we didn't live close to my grandparents — saw them maybe four times a year until we moved to Michigan. So I had no expectations. My kids didn't get that experience of coming over for five hours like your grandkids did — not saying not at all, but it's a different reality.

Mel: Yeah, I really, really wanted to be that type of Grammy — but again, that was during my "worthy years," proving myself.

Anne: But you also did a lot of stuff for yourself — you didn't let the kids take over your whole personality, you were still doing things that were yours. Whereas I went completely the other way and left myself a long time ago, and I'm just now coming back. That's probably why you didn't mourn it as much as I have.

Mel: Yep, I didn't. But — I bet my family would've liked my mom to do a little more for us and less for herself.

Anne: Well, that's why I think I did what I did — my parents both worked, and when my mom came home she was spent. I understand it, but I did have to go through anger about that. That's why I did a lot of what I did — because of my childhood.

Mel: And my mom wanted to be my friend — "why can't we just be friends?" Well, you're my mom, we don't have a lot in common, I don't have a lot in common with you, we disagree on almost everything.

Anne: If you weren't my mom, we wouldn't even be talking.

Mel: Right, we wouldn't know each other. So I held myself a little more away from my kids, because I didn't want them to feel that pressure — I don't feel pressured to be my friend, please don't feel pressured to be mine, I'll make my own friends and you make your own. Yes I'm your mom, I'm your safe haven, but I didn't sink in all the way the way you did. I did think it would be different when I had grandkids. And when you put up a boundary, it's tricky — why are you doing that, and why can you put up a boundary when you have "nothing else going on"? Can you just say, I don't wanna? I struggle with it still, but it's hard.

Anne: There's still a part of it — if I look at it from Tony's point of view, I'd think, why the fuck can't you, I'm doing this job over here with meetings and everything, why can't you? Bitch, because I don't want to.

Mel: Yeah, and is that a valid reason?

Anne: And I can totally see him getting annoyed with that. I'm sure you've been annoyed that I don't want to do whatever.

Mel: Yeah, like Jimmy for a while when I couldn't do the dishes. I could physically do the dishes — energetically, I could not. I know that sounds insane. If I were anyone other than myself feeling that, I'd think, what the actual — but he would do the dishes before work in the morning, and I'd be so embarrassed, saying I'm so sorry, I feel so bad, but I can't. I don't have any energy, I just don't. And now I do the dishes, I make dinner, I can do more things. But I was so depleted without knowing that's what it was — I couldn't function as an adult human. And now that I'm not working from a depleted state, what do I want to give my energy to? How do I choose to spend my life? And I still have — our son, I'm not able to see a couple of our grandkids right now because they didn't like the boundary I put up. Okay. They'll be okay. I have to remind myself all the time — I still loved my grandma even when I didn't get to see her all the time. This is no judgment on our son either, not even a little — I created a position where I was a beck-and-call bitch, and when I decided I don't actually want to be that, I'd like to do this, this, and this, and if that's not good enough, then we're gonna have another conversation when you're ready. They're not ready to come to the table yet. I've got nothing wrong with that. Good for them for holding their line, good for me for not caving on mine. It is tricky when someone else puts up a boundary — you want to go right to blame. Now I'm gonna blame you for doing this thing to me. You're not doing a thing to me, you're doing a thing, and then I get to respond however I want. I've cried, I've felt it, I've done a lot of different emotional things.

Anne: Well, and it was their assumption that you were gonna step in and take care of the kids whenever they asked.

Mel: Yeah, and I'm not working on assumptions anymore. I'd like to be asked. I did ask, "which two days" — no, that's not the same. I'd like to have a conversation about what those days mean, if they're even those days. So he decided to put a boundary up — good for you, you do you, I'm not gonna blame you for your boundary. I'm glad you're doing something. I'm not gonna come crawling down to your level because you're doing it that way — you do you, I'll be over here doing me, let me know when you're ready to talk. And I give it up to spirit all the time. I did text him once, said I was willing to watch the kids, wondering if I could have them one day — and as I was texting I said, spirit, I don't know that this is the right thing, I'm just missing them. If it's not time yet for me, help keep that door closed. Please keep the door closed. And he never responded. It's tricky when someone else puts a boundary up, to still hold your own line like you did, and feel like an ass, and people are probably saying, why can't she just — blame it on you, you're the bad guy.

Anne: Well, and the thing is, I always did the cleaning — once a week deep clean, all the bathrooms, sheets changed, all of it. And this last year I'm like, I'm not doing all of this alone, I'm not gonna be the maid. I'm not the one who spilled shit on the floor, why do I have to clean it up? It'll sit there. And the craziest part is, before I wouldn't have let it sit there, I would've just handled it. There was a spill on the kitchen floor, and I was a little embarrassed when the repair guy came, but it's not mine, why am I expected to be the one to clean it? I'll clean it if I feel inspired to — like, there's a lot of dog hair, maybe I should do a little cleaning — and that would be a satisfaction to myself, not for anyone else. This house has been great, it's from the eighties, it isn't perfect, but the energy is wonderful. In our other houses I felt like things needed to be perfect, and this house has given me the freedom to say it's okay that it's not.

Mel: Yeah, I wonder how long that hole in the bathroom will be there.

Anne: I'm super curious too. He tried to get ahold of one drywaller, but the guy lives far and it's kind of a small job to drive out for. Maybe he knows somebody closer, I don't know.

Mel: And I wouldn't be surprised — once you realize you're worthy enough to set boundaries down about yourself, and you can say them and hold them even when people do all the things they do because they're not used to it — spirit will keep organizing another opportunity for you to lay down a boundary. Are you gonna hold it? Are you gonna keep it? Is this important enough for you? And it does that until you don't even notice anymore — one day you'll be like, I didn't even notice I had a boundary, didn't notice I laid it down, didn't notice I held it. It just is how I live now.

Anne: I will say — one of my boundaries needs to be that I get to be heard. Or, okay, you don't even have to hear me, but I'd like to be able to say it to you. Then you can do whatever you want with the information. If you want to run away and not discuss it, fine, that's on you. But I deserve to be heard. And my feelings. And if you take it as an attack on you, I feel that's on you, that's not on me. I think that's the hardest thing with my daughter — she wants to shut me down as soon as I start saying anything.

Mel: That's on you, not my problem. For real, not my problem.

Anne: Which makes me so angry, and she'd be better off if she'd just let me say the things.

Mel: It is hard, I'll say, from the perspective of — the reason it's hard is because you're triggering something that feels true to her. When Jimmy would come at me and say certain things, I knew they were true, and it was hard to hear. It was one thing to know it of myself and feel the shame and guilt, and another to hear him say it out loud. Now we're at the point where he doesn't say it out loud, and for a while I was still feeling it because I knew what he was doing — feeling guilt and shame even without the words. And now, this weekend, he was doing a few things and I noticed — look at you, Mel, you don't even feel bad anymore.

Anne: Right, that's huge.

Mel: Because in the past, even if I wasn't rushing to do something, I felt guilt about not having done it and having him do it instead. And this weekend I was like, I see that. This didn't make you — fuck him, that's on them, not on me, mine are right here. So constantly, what am I feeling? I notice I'm running through it — maybe not all the way on the other side, but I'm getting closer and closer, because I have nothing —

Anne: Right.

Mel: Even when I've done things wrong, even intentionally and deceitfully, which — let's face it, Mel has definitely done — I no longer am deceitful, I don't need to pretend or lie. So now whatever I do is upfront and honest, and if you wanted it different, you should have said something.

Anne: Well, that's the thing — Tony doesn't like honesty. I'll say things that are true, point them out, and he says he doesn't want to hear that. I say, well, it's honest, and he —

Mel: Yeah, well, sometimes it still hurts when it's honest, because he's probably feeling feelings about it, it's hard. Jimmy would say, this isn't even about you, but it felt like an attack because something in me thought it was about me. There was a time he'd come home and say something that did get done, and all I heard was everything that didn't.

Anne: Yeah, not getting all the other stuff done.

Mel: Right, he never said any of that — but for me there was so much guilt and shame for being this quote-unquote loser woman who couldn't get the shit done. So now it's, I don't know, I'm doing the best I can. I say often —

Anne: I used to always have to point out everything I did — I guess it was like what he was doing to prove his worth when he wasn't working — and I was having to prove myself, look at all the I did.

Mel: Right, he was just doing the thing for himself. You should pick a better wife.

Anne: Well, I think that's probably how Tony feels, because I'm very observant too. I told him — he wanted to fix that drywall, and I said, it's gonna be fucked up, I'm not trying to be a dick, but we don't know what we're doing, and if it's a big mounded mess, I'm gonna notice it and it's gonna drive me crazy.

Mel: Well, that gives you something to work through.

Anne: I know.

Mel: And that's so precious. And horrible.

Anne: He's like, well, at least I know what your standard is, I guess we're gonna have to find somebody else.

Mel: All right, well, this was our discussion on boundaries — definitely a roundabout, over-the-river-and-through-the-woods kind of experience.

Anne: Yeah, 'cause it turned into worth. Boundaries are about worth.

Mel: They are about worth. You've gotta know that you're worthy, know what you deserve. You have to know there's something you do, even if it's just being asked.

Anne: And not just being asked, but being asked and knowing it's okay to say no.

Mel: To say no. I agree.

Anne: I almost want to be asked just so I can say no — so I can be like, look at me, saying no.

Mel: I know. Look at me — that's not what's happening today. Really unfortunate for you. Jimmy, I say you probably should've picked a better wife, I think you got saddled with a bit of a doozy. There was one time I said you should probably divorce me and move on.

Anne: Well, and when I get into my thing and Tony runs, I'm always in the back of my head thinking, is this gonna be the thing that causes the divorce? Did I push it too far?

Mel: And I probably said it because I know for a fact Jimmy would not leave — he's the most loyal human I've ever met, way more loyal than me.

Anne: Well, I don't think Tony would actually leave either, but there are times, especially because I don't know what he's thinking since he's not talking, that I wonder.

Mel: And there's probably some worth in there too — am I worth sticking around for when I'm just causing trouble, making waves.

Anne: Well, and I think it also feels vulnerable to just let it ride, so it's trying to cover up the vulnerability too — like, I totally saw that divorce coming, so I can save face. Have the wall up over the heart.

Mel: Right, right. We're gonna dig the ditch even —

Anne: Yeah. So anyway, this has been fun.

Mel: All right, well that was good. This was us talking about boundaries and self-worth and whatever else. A lot of stories, all the nonsense — if you're willing and you like it, give us a follow. We put up new episodes on Tuesday mornings, sometimes Thursday, depending.

Anne: Love this — if you can think of topics too, if there's any topic —

Mel: Yeah, if there's a topic you'd like to explore, we're willing. Let's do it. All right, thanks for listening, friends. I'm Mel.

Anne: Yeah, let's do it.

Anne: Amen. See you.

Mel: All right, have a great night.