Heard

Anne: Good morning, afternoon, or evening. This is Coffee, Tea and Consciousness. I'm Anne.

Mel: If we were real people we'd be having to do retakes.

Anne: And we always — yeah, we ain't wasting our time. This is as real as it gets.

Mel: This is as real as it gets. All right, I'm Melody. I'm Mel.

Anne: Yep. So today I was thinking of this topic and we'll see where it goes, because I'm sure it'll go in a gazillion different directions. But I guess it's recognizing when you react to a situation or circumstance in a different way than normal — like, what was your normal at one point.

Anne: I used to come into situations a bit, especially with my family, and I think a lot of it was because of frustration of not feeling like what I was saying was heard. And so I would get angry, frustrated, act kind of like a toddler, I guess, having a temper tantrum. But it never went well — everyone would scatter, and so then it just refuels the "nobody's listening to me" aspect. But in this last week I've felt a calm, even in — not that I don't lose my shit, but I don't go into it in the same way, like letting myself calm down, getting it out, but not getting it out at the person, I guess is part of it — trying to ease the water so that it can be more of a productive conversation instead of a "I'm gonna shout and tell you turn away and don't even hear what I'm saying."

Mel: So we've had a running saga of Annie's current outburst. So what do you think changed?

Anne: Well, part of it was — okay, so my husband's thing when I would come, it would cause him to run. He would go silent and then run away from the situation. And so we went and talked. It was this whole cycle we got into. So this last week, I think we talked about it, and I thought, well, that way doesn't work. And we had a discussion and he said it makes him want to run. And so I thought, well, I'll do it different. It didn't change the outcome, because he still ran. And we didn't talk for a day. But I came at it differently. And I even told him, I was like, you know, I tried coming at it differently, and I still got the same outcome from you.

Mel: He still ran. Right. But how did it feel different for you? Did it feel different for you?

Anne: Yeah, I did. It felt better. It felt like I was better able to explain myself and not feel like I was attacking, even though before I don't know if I felt like I was attacking, I just felt like I was saying how I felt, but it was also combined with tears, a lot of emotion. And this time — I mean I bitched it out, I think, with you. And then I came home and I was calmer. And there weren't any tears. And it did feel better. And we have a situation that we need to talk to our daughter about, and we've been sitting on it since Monday, which is huge, because usually instead of sitting and thinking about it, because she also does the same thing where she feels attacked, or I don't know if attacked is the right word, but it kind of shuts her down. I think it causes the anxiety to rise, and so you never have a good conversation back and forth with her. So this time — Tony and I talked about the way to come about it, and it's different, 'cause I've been sitting on it and my emotions are even. I don't feel one way or another about the situation anymore. I know that it needs to be handled and it needs to be talked about, but it is different — coming at it from a calmer, more collected way.

Mel: So you didn't — Jimmy and I learned about Kabbalah. Who knows how, I don't even know. But in learning, Jimmy and I took this course on understanding how to live by these principles of Kabbalah. Not that I always do, not that he probably always does. But one of the things they talk about is to not really bring it up until you're at a place of calm. So sounds like you've sat on this thing that you're gonna have a conversation with tomorrow, but you're already at a place of calm about it. So then when you come at it, you're just coming at it from a perspective of, hey, listen, whatever.

Mel: They gave the example in one of the Kabbalah classes about this guy — it was his birthday. His wife was home when he got home from work, but he expected this experience from his wife. Looked like she must have had a hard day — there was shit colored on the walls, which if you've had kids, that's happened a time or two, whether it's literal shit or a marker or a pen or a lipstick. But anyway, he came in and the house was a mess, stuff on the walls that wasn't there before he went to work, and his wife was sleeping on the sofa. And he was so angry. He talked about how he had to stop and pause. Like he was filled with this — right, like he was probably sad, I imagine, because it's his birthday and they weren't doing this, obviously nothing special was happening for him for this night. And not only was nothing special happening, now he comes into a mess that maybe he's gonna deal with. And looks like his quote-unquote lazy-ass wife is laying there sleeping on the sofa. And he talked about how after practicing this pause — just waiting until he was calmer to talk about it — in the end he wakes up his wife: "hey, you feeling okay?" But he didn't wake her up until he was ready to do it from a place where he wasn't hot.

Mel: I don't think we can expect people to do that automatically, right? When you're working through something, it is —

Anne: No, that's why I get in the car and I bitch it out.

Mel: Right, it's a hard thing to come to. And then even sometimes when you see the person, now I'm all retriggered all over again. I was calm and then I looked at your face, and now I'm pissed all over again. But what a tricky thing that is, to come to that place and not do it for the other person. I'm not coming at this in a calmer way for you — I'm coming at this in a calmer way for me. I mean, the minute somebody says to me, "calm down," I might not have even been on fire — I'm on fire now. "Calm down" is like magic words for Mel to blow up into a balloon of flames. But this person was talking about what a difference it's made in his relationship, over time, being able to come at it from a calm way.

Mel: I remember when Jimmy and I were practicing this Kabbalah way of being — it's not a religion, it's just a way of trying to experience life — telling each other, hey, pause, maybe we need to pause. Of course that was much more challenging for me than it was for him. And sometimes I do think things need to be said when you are hot. So maybe it's recognizing the difference — sometimes when you're coming at it all calm and reasonable, the same understanding isn't there. Like, I'm hurt. I want to be heard.

Anne: Yeah. Well, my biggest realization is the not feeling heard, and that's why it would erupt, I guess you could call it, because it feels like my feelings were getting brushed off — still get over it. The big thing was like — what used to really tick me off was cleaning the house. I like a clean house, I don't like doing it. And so that could trigger me — why are you guys so goddamn lazy? And they would all fucking scatter like goddamn mice. And once she's done, she'll be fine.

Anne: So I had to have a conversation with both of them, 'cause they're who I'm dealing with the most. And I wanna be heard. I want my feelings to be heard. Like you want yours to be heard — well, I want mine heard.

Mel: Right. So the question is, do you feel more heard now? Or did the change happen because you finally recognized what it was that you were looking for?

Anne: I think it's a little bit of both. I think the getting angry was — I thought that would get me what I needed or what I was looking for, and obviously it didn't. I don't know what switched. I just feel calmer. My energy feels calmer. I think the first piece of it was him finally saying that it feels like I need to run. Fight or flight — his reaction is flight. And I'm kind of proud of myself, because obviously it didn't work the way I thought it would if I came at it calmer, that it would be more opening to a conversation, but it felt better for me. So it isn't even about how he reacted — it's about the way it made me feel.

Mel: Right. So if you look at the energetic steps — you've been processing what is going on, what's underneath this, what am I actually looking for. I'm really looking to be heard. I don't feel like I'm heard in my family. I would like to be heard. And then you come to that realization, and then lo and behold, you have a conversation from a completely different perspective — I'm calmer coming at it. I'm getting the same result — the result didn't change, but I now feel better. So I'll be curious over the course of the next month or so, whether you'll notice times when you feel you're being heard. I do this thing — I write down at the first part of the month the ways that I feel internally. So what has shifted internally for me versus my old normal? And then I look at my reality — where have I shifted my feelings?

Mel: One of the things I noticed — when Jimmy will sit down to do our budget for the month, I have this "I wanna run" feeling — he's gonna say we can't do this, all these things that normally happen. And this first part of September, when he was doing it, I noticed I didn't feel that. I texted you — I sat there in the room not feeling it. I was watching for the feelings. He got his old phone out to do the checkbook registry, and I'm looking at my belly thinking, are you gonna have that same feeling? And I did not have it this time. And he didn't ask me a lot of questions, which normally he is down and dirty with every single question for the past month. So I was able to look at it and say, my internal situation has changed this month. I know it has, because I didn't have those feelings. I noticed last month I did have the feelings, but they weren't as strong. And now they're gone. So now I get to look at my future physical environment and say — I wonder what that'll look like next month, because your inner reality does shape your outer reality. It does happen. I was shooting out the energy — hey, she feels pretty guilty about every nickel that's spent in this household, so come at her, let's get on her about every single nickel.

Mel: And now it's like, well, I don't really feel bad about every single nickel I spend. I actually don't even feel bad about anything I spend. There's nothing to feel fucking bad about. It was my own bullshit. But now I can look and say, next month when I do it, I wonder what it'll look like, what will have shifted externally to match my internal reality. Your internal reality is always the precursor. So if you notice the way you're feeling, what will shift externally? Sometimes it's hard for me to admit it, because I'm like, I'm having the same fucking situation over and over again, and it's embarrassing, because — don't you feel like that sometimes? Like I should know better?

Anne: Yeah. But sometimes the emotions — you can look at it afterwards and say, wow, I didn't handle that one good at all, that was never my intention. But you get caught up in the emotion of it. And it's not to say stuff those emotions, that's not it, because you don't want to stuff that shit.

Mel: Right, or I've been on that same ride for fifteen years — no, that doesn't work.

Anne: But I think for me, leaving and coming back after I've let my shit — feel it, let my anger bubble up, or sadness, whatever it is — and then coming back and dealing with it, that does make a huge difference. Luckily when we found out about her stuff, she wasn't home, and that also gave us a chance to digest, and talk together about it and what needs to occur. And it's been since Monday — so now it's Friday, we're gonna talk to her tomorrow. So it had me refine even more — because we were like, and she's gonna pay for this and she needs to get a job and all of these things. But in reality I want her to focus on the school stuff instead of being more focused about the "she's gotta get a job" thing. So that's also refined even from Monday what the plan would be.

Mel: It is true. So now when you go talk to her, instead of "this is what I want to have happen," your desire for the big picture is able to be seen more than just your desire in the heat of the moment.

Anne: Right. Yep.

Mel: So then I think about all the people that will go out to their car and be pissed. There's a lot of people out there who are going out to their car mad. And the ride doesn't change. Their experience doesn't seem to change. So then it's like, well, is it because they're not going underneath the anger? Are they not understanding yet what's underneath there?

Anne: It's taken me — Tony and I have been married twenty-seven years, so it's taken a long fucking time to figure out what the major thing is, which is I don't feel like I'm being heard. That was almost like an epiphany — holy shit, that's what the issue is. I don't feel like my voice is being heard. It gets squashed the second it fucking comes out. So that was huge, but it took years, obviously.

Mel: Yeah, well, for me too — mine was about money. And everyone would say, you must be worried, there must be something. No, for me it was guilt.

Anne: Huh.

Mel: And it's taken me all these years to recognize it was guilt. It wasn't worry, it was guilt. I felt guilty for every single thing I did. I felt guilty for every bloody penny I spent, whether it was on me or the kids. And no wonder why he was questioning — to make me feel more guilty.

Anne: Right, and it makes sense why he would always question you.

Mel: Every single thing — did you spend ninety-nine cents on blah, send me a text. For me, I kept thinking I must be worried about something, there must be something under here, because my experience with our money situation hasn't changed. And it's taken me a long time to — sometimes it does take a really long time to see the issue under the issue. I'm not actually fucking worried. I actually think everything's gonna be fine. Ask me — she's like planning next year's vacation, no issues. Guilt. I always felt guilty for spending. No one made me.

Anne: Well, and you took on every anything financially that went wrong — you took on all of it, like nobody else had any part in it.

Mel: Of course I did, because I felt guilty. I was the only player in this fucking game. Everything that went wrong, whether it was my fault or not, I took it on like it was totally mine. But I didn't realize that until just these last couple years. And I will say this is the first month that I watched the budget being handled and I didn't feel guilty. First time. It takes sometimes a lifetime to know — twenty-seven years is a quarter of a lifetime. It's taken me a quarter of a lifetime to not feel guilty. And it wasn't just about my marriage to Jimmy — it was before my marriage. It's been my whole life.

Anne: From childhood. That just struck me — I haven't felt heard since childhood.

Mel: From childhood. This guilt over spending, it's from childhood. I used to steal — I was a stealer, because if I spent money I should — I would feel guilty, so instead I felt guilty in another way, 'cause I would babysit and instead of spending my money, I would steal from the people I babysat for. Sorry, they knew, they came at me for that. So it, but for me it was guilt over having something that wasn't mine, or I didn't deserve — again it goes back to worth, I wasn't worthy of it. All the things that aren't true. But I'm now in my fifties and I can say for the first time in my life I didn't have any guilt, nor did I feel like I needed to run away. He didn't come at me with any questions either — he would say, I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, I'm just trying to understand — well, you don't understand.

Anne: You're like, but I still got that bullshit circling around, baby.

Mel: But it's taken years, it can take years to discover what's underneath. But I do love my journal, because it's fun to watch — because sometimes when things change, they're so incremental you don't notice. I've just thrown journals out from years and years ago, but it's fun to watch how month by month things can shift. I've added a new thing — how am I then responding to this situation I find unpleasant? Because sometimes you don't realize you've been responding the exact same way and nothing is changing. Maybe you could try a different way, look at it from a different perspective.

Anne: Right, coming at it the wrong way.

Mel: But for me to look at it written down — I can see it easier when I look back, like, I've been doing the same, same, same pattern.

Anne: Well, I will tell you, you've been digging into your shit for a much longer period of time than me. I never really felt the need until this last year — noticing things, looking at my childhood and seeing it differently. I always thought it was funny, because Tony brought up that his family — I had a really great childhood — and I'm like, you didn't pick up any shit along the way? I don't think I had a really bad childhood either, but there's still beliefs I took on that don't serve me.

Anne: It brings up the hurt and anger of it all, but eventually you get to a point where you can also see the good in your childhood. I think that's what some people think — my childhood wasn't that bad, so what do I have to dig in for? But it isn't even about the childhood itself, it's the beliefs that you took on more than how you were raised.

Mel: It depends for each person. We went away for a weekend with some friends, sitting around the table for breakfast, talking about all the things we hear that sound like from our childhood. For me, I was only ever gonna be good enough to be a wife and a mother. I wasn't smart, but I was fun. And when I was young I was super cute, so — you'll be a fun, good wife and mother, you're too dumb to have any other aspirations. We were talking about it, and finally I looked at Jimmy and said, he wasn't raised in the same way I was. He was raised by a woman who thought he was smart, capable. So I said, what ruminates in your mind when you make a mistake? I've had to retrain my brain to not think I'm an idiot. He goes, I don't know, I just think, that was a mistake, and I go correct it. I don't think anything about it. We were sitting there flabbergasted, because the rest of us came from parents who had some real sturdy feelings about us.

Mel: But then it hit me — your mom didn't believe in fun. So what do you do for fun? And everything he talked about doing for fun was attached to an outcome. So even though he wasn't raised with a shitty childhood — he was doted on, actually, his mom would ask to make him cereal when he was a teenager — his beliefs are that fun is not a respectable or responsible thing to do with your time. Neither is rest. Watch him in a chair, trying so hard to rest — all he's feeling is guilt, I should be up doing something, I should be mowing the lawn. Everything he does for fun has to be attached to some sort of productive outcome. His mom was very into intellectually learning, so fun would be going to a museum, or an athletic thing that was also a health benefit. It was never just for a good time.

Anne: Right. Tony's got that. I'm wasting my day.

Mel: I'm wasting my day away — I can't. So he could say, what do I have to dig into, I don't have anything to dig into — well, you could dig into the belief that fun can't just be the benefit of fun. Like my paint-by-number stuff I'm never gonna put on the wall — it's just for the pleasure of doing it. Old Mel would be like, my god, I should feel guilty for wasting money on something that's just for fun. Even a journal — I remember having a conversation about buying a journal, and someone said, what are you gonna do with it, you could just use a notebook, we've got all these half-used notebooks in the house. But it was wasting money on something just for my pleasure — that's a waste.

Anne: That sounds like me. I never go back and look at my stuff, whereas you do.

Mel: If I can just say, we did just buy school supplies for Annabelle, and they said she needed a composition notebook, and I really — you know you're never gonna use it. I am telling you, we have bought so many composition notebooks and used them for our meal plan, grocery lists, because honest to god, no one has ever used a composition notebook for its actual purpose in our family, ever.

Mel: It is tricky to recognize what you're feeling from, and then how do you recognize it in a way that says, I'm really ready to stop playing the same game I've been playing for forty-eight years, however long I've felt guilty.

Anne: Well, I think it took me a long time to want to dig into my beliefs, or my childhood, because we're always comparing our situation to somebody else's — my situation looks nothing like that situation. But it doesn't mean there isn't shit you picked up. Even as simple as somebody making a comment when you're walking by, and you take it on like it's yours.

Mel: Well, it just hit me — my mom never made me feel guilty about money, but people would talk about my mom and her irresponsible spending. And so I took it on not from my mom, but from people talking about her. But it wasn't necessarily a belief she instilled in me — she actually thought having new things was good. But other people thought that was irresponsible of her. So it isn't always stuff that was hammered into your head — sometimes it's an offhanded comment. Like the one from my grandma we talked about in the beliefs episode. Jimmy didn't have a terrible childhood — his parents got divorced, some probably abandonment stuff there — but once we recognized fun and rest weren't worthy — that woman did not rest. Time had to be utilized. They didn't know what to do with me in the morning, just lounging around.

Anne: Yep. That was Tony too. My husband, the TV ain't coming on until it's dark, the whole day you're busy doing something, 'cause if not it's a waste. So when he was off of work he would have to tell me — basically for himself, to feel like he was worthy of all the things he did.

Mel: Right, up, up, up.

Anne: Well, I went and picked up sticks, then I mowed the yard, then I blah blahed — and I'm like, it's okay if you didn't do any of those things, I don't give a shit, kudos to you, but it's okay to not do any of it, it doesn't matter. But it was his value.

Mel: Right. Jeannie paid for us to go on this vacation once — it was some timeshare thing she was involved in, and I was pregnant. We had our own room, she had her own room. She came in our room and turned our TV off — is this how you plan to spend our day away? Well, maybe it is, Jimmy works every day, I was tired and sick a lot when pregnant, and it's a vacation. So we had to get up and go do whatever it was she wanted to do that day. We couldn't lay around and watch a show — that's not allowed, we need to be up and getting something done. That was really heavily instilled in him, and you can see it to this day — that man does not know how to rest. You can feel him when he's laying down, even if he looks peaceful, it's almost like he's jagged, I should be doing something.

Mel: After his mom died, I'm like, if you want, you could just come home and sit every day for a year, you don't have to prove anything to me by doing stuff. When we brought our son to college, dropped him off, on the way home he's like, so what's the plan for the rest of the day? I'm like, the only thing I haven't done today is I like to climb into a bed that's been made, so I'll just make the bed today. He's like, with the rest of the day? He had this whole list — the lawn needs to get mowed. I was like, well, you can do that, but I found a show I liked, and he laid down and watched it with me — and then he thought a lot about mowing the grass, and then how much he felt guilty because he didn't. Sometimes now he shames and guilts himself later, so I encourage him to just go mow the grass, because you'll feel so terrible otherwise.

Anne: Yeah, and so it's almost like just go do it.

Mel: He's also in his fifties, and it's been bred into him that resting is wrong. Jeannie would say, where's Mel? Well, she's resting. Why is she resting, is she sick? No, I think she's just laying down. My god, it was terrible.

Anne: And you were made to feel kinda like that too, weren't you? I never had any of that shit.

Mel: Yep, because that was my worthiness I'd been working on for a long time. I'm worthy of rest, until I don't feel guilty any longer about resting. I was made to feel so lazy — my mom would wake us up out of bed, girls, I smell dust, you gotta get up. If we didn't get up at eight o'clock as teenagers, we were lazy. My sister loved to read — I love to read too, but my god, she's so lazy, all she does is read.

Anne: See, my parents were impressed if I got up before noon.

Mel: There's no way that was happening in our world.

Anne: That didn't happen with Tony either, he doesn't understand why he would sleep that late. My philosophy was always, if they're sleeping, just let them sleep, obviously they need it.

Mel: I feel like that now with the kids. I went through that phase of, what does my sleep pattern even look like, because it's been trained into me. And now I have found it. Today I slept in — I woke up at quarter to seven. I definitely slept in today, as a matter of fact I was concerned I would sleep in, I had a hair appointment. Jimmy texted me this morning, "are you awake?" Yes. He gets up at four-ten. To him I am sleeping in, majorly.

Anne: That's a crazy time, four-ten.

Mel: If he got up at four-twenty he wouldn't be able to make everyone's lunches, and I don't like to make lunches, so I encourage him to get up at four-ten. If it were up to me they'd just have hot lunch. Making them lunch is a thing in our house, and Jimmy does it, because I would just be like, don't tell dad. Except now it's Annabelle who has to not tell Poppy.

Anne: Well, I only had one kid who even liked hot lunch — Riley was the only one, Jackson and Macy were like no, and I don't think Reese liked it either.

Mel: Maybe it's the forbidden fruit — this shit's gotta be good, we weren't allowed to have it. But we don't know, because we haven't really been allowed to have it much. Except for when Mel fucks off and doesn't make it, and then I would feel guilty and have to lie about it. All the lying I did over guilt was so absurd — my whole life was filled with lying because I felt so guilty. I did not know that my shit was guilt. Now that I do, I'm so glad I don't feel it like I used to.

Anne: It is pretty amazing once you recognize something. It's like being wound up and then all of a sudden you let loose — like a swing set you've wound up and then you get to spin it back. Holy shit, the twisty ties are off.

Mel: My whole life, that was my whole life. And the twisty ties are off, and when you can notice it, you can see the thread of every — I then created experiences for myself to feel guilty about, right, that whole "manifest your reality" thing. I just kept manifesting one experience after another to feel more guilty about, pulling in the energy of people to make me feel guilty. Anyone that's gonna make someone feel guilty, come play with Mel, because Mel has got the guilty energy. And if I wasn't actually guilty of doing anything really wrong, it didn't matter, I still felt guilty.

Anne: Well, Tony was talking the other day about stuff coming up in him — he was thinking about the job he quit, and that whole experience, looking back with anger, and I'm like, well, you could look at it in a different light, like they taught you to finally respect yourself a little bit, because his boss said some pretty nasty shit he should have called her out on and didn't. But he said he's having a ton of vivid dreams, and that whole experience coming back up for him. My curiosity is like, I wonder what's happening with him.

Mel: Right, because something is definitely moving, some energy is shifting for him. I think of everything like the stages of grief — anger's like the top of the button, and then once I'm done with angry, then I'll feel whatever's next. I always feel like when you're getting to anger, it's tricky, and I know it from my own experience, to not want to shut it off, because it triggers a lot of safety issues in me — I was physically abused as a kid. So when my family would get angry, my mom would get angry, we knew a beating wasn't very far off. And so when Jimmy would show me his anger, I wanted to shut it off, because it didn't feel safe. I had to go through the process of, you're allowed to be angry, and I'm still safe. And I would say it out loud, and he'd be like, I'm not gonna hurt you. No, I know, it's not about you, though. It's not about him at all — it's this shit that's in me, from every time someone would get angry. So I'm not safe. I remember thinking about his throat chakra — keep that one closed, I'm not ready. But now I think, just even saying that, it's because I thought he was gonna be angry with me for things I could feel guilty of. But now I'm like, what the fuck would you have to be angry with me about?

Anne: Right, and in reality the anger usually isn't even about you.

Mel: No, for sure, it's probably about all the ways — even if he feels it, I don't think it's about me anymore. But it hit me that was still this guilty thing I was carrying around. So for Tony, feeling angry feels like things are moving, things are shifting.

Anne: Yeah, I was just very curious. It was interesting, because I've been told I keep digging up more shit than I need to, so I'm trying not to be like, ooh, so what the hell is that, where's that gonna lead — because I don't wanna come at it from the perspective of the fear I hold about his health. And I didn't push him — he's like, I've had these really vivid dreams. I'm like, I hardly ever remember my dreams, that's cool that you can remember them.

Mel: That's totally different — normally the minute he'd say something you'd be like, ooh, let's see what that is. That even is different in you. If you had a journal, I'd have you write that down and see how it makes a difference. That too is a huge shift in you.

Anne: Yes. Because I usually would be like, and where does this lead, and what do you think that means — and it's like, mm, let's just let him do it at his own pace. Whereas before I would have loved to push it.

Mel: Yeah, keep — what happened to Annie? What a swift shift this has been for you.

Anne: It has. I think it's because when they talked about Macy and her anxiety, and you need to stop digging up more shit to try and get him to open up — it was like, my god, that makes sense.

Mel: That is really a swift shift. I have been digging a pit for myself.

Anne: Yeah, I have been digging in fear, in hopes that it would trigger something in him to move. And I can see that.

Mel: But look at how you've let go, and now all of a sudden he's having these vivid dreams and talking about his own stuff. I will tell you, the hardest thing on the face of the earth, I think, is surrender. I went through that a couple different times. I did a reading for someone this week — have you read any books by Pema Chödrön on surrender? I have every single one of her books here.

Anne: I got the goosebumps.

Mel: Surrender is putting your faith in something you can't hold in your hand. It's total, and also surrendering timing — letting it come in at its right timing, and quit pushing, because that's just fucking slowing shit down.

Anne: And we've always — society has taught us, you gotta push, you gotta hustle. And I was also thinking about — kids are supposed to know what they want to do by seventh grade or something stupid, super early. I remember my grandpa saying, I'm seventy-nine and I still don't know what the hell I want to do with my life. I'm like, that's so true.

Mel: Where's your grit? My hairdresser today said something about going to college — I think I mentioned dropping our son off at college this week, and what's he gonna do. And I'm like, well, this is what he's thinking about, but who knows, life is so long. There's a few people in the world — my husband is one — who wants to be pigeonholed at the age of twelve until he's dead. For him it's consistency and stability, and it feels really right to know exactly where he's going. There are people who enjoy that. But for the rest of us —

Anne: More than not, people are not happy or satisfied.

Mel: We're all over the place. There's this guy at Sam's Club — Jimmy graduated college with him, in the engineering department. He works there picking orders. We see him almost every time we go. He's got a degree in engineering, probably had a job, and he's like, I cannot not be on the move, I love it here, I love doing this. Jimmy's like, we graduated engineering together. You could feel his delectable enjoyment on moving around all the time — not high pressure like UPS, but constant moving. He totally said he enjoys it, and I think it's true for him. He came to it later in life — I just couldn't keep doing what I was doing anymore. Good for him. Sometimes you gotta pay a lot of money to figure out what you don't fucking want.

Anne: Well, it's funny, because Tony is also an engineer, and he didn't know he actually wanted to be a teacher. He was told, well, you're not gonna make any money, you should go into engineering, so that's what he did. I don't think he minds it, but I do think it's kind of sad that he was turned away from it.

Mel: Jimmy was told the same thing — he wanted to be a teacher, would've been an excellent teacher. But I think Jimmy would be excellent at almost anything, because he has the stability to stick with it. For him it's all about the stability, the consistency, it feels really good. But for most of us, we've changed our shit how many times? I wonder what the average number of career changes is in a lifetime.

Anne: Well, Tony's changed jobs —

Mel: But not career, so I wonder. Anywho, alright, well, I have no idea what that was about.

Anne: I don't either, but it felt good, it felt right.

Mel: All right. There we go — another episode of Coffee, Tea and Consciousness, where we discuss anything in a way that may just circle a drain. I don't really know what the topic was actually today, but that's all right too.

Anne: We start with a topic and it moves. Well, the topic was noticing when there's a shift in how you come at a situation.

Mel: Yeah, come at an experience. All right, cool. Well, that's us. If you haven't yet, please follow our podcast, and we will be back with you next week.

Anne: Yep. Yes, indeedy. All right. I am Anne. Bye.

Mel: Alright, have a good one. I'm Mel. See you. Bye.