Higher Perspective, Human Mess

Anne: Hi, Coffee, Tea and Consciousness. I'm Anne.

Mel: I'm Mel. Thanks for joining us.

Anne: We picked the topic of looking at things from a higher perspective, but we're still human. So there are still those human emotions that get stirred up in the mix.

Mel: That's right. And we are always having big experiences where we can see things from a higher perspective — maybe not even in the moment. Sometimes it takes a minute to really see it clearer. But also, when you're in it, you do have feelings. We did come here on purpose to feel things, to experience things — not only to see things from the higher perspective.

Mel: I'd like to add a thought of my own. It feels to me like in the spiritual community, people who are only seeing things from a higher perspective get more respect. I think I respected them for a while — look how spiritually inclined they are, look how they can always see things from a higher perspective. But now, as I've been going through more of this — actually, all of us dummies down here came to this earth plane on purpose to feel things, to experience things. It takes a great deal of courage to just fucking feel it.

Anne: It really does. It takes a lot.

Mel: It takes a lot of courage to feel it, to be vulnerable enough with one another to say how we're actually feeling, instead of just going — even if you do have some self-awareness —

Anne: Well, and you can still have self-awareness but still look at it as a human. I've been going through stuff. A big chapter of my life ended with raising my kids, and finally the youngest one graduated high school, so everyone's an adult. And looking at that time period — that was 30 years of my life. When you're in the thick of raising kids, you push a lot of shit down, suppress a lot of things just to get through the moment.

Mel: Just in survival mode.

Anne: Just in survival. And a lot of things are coming up. My husband does not like it when I tell him about things I pushed down that he did. And I can also see it from the perspective that I had to go through that to get to this. A lot of my shit was tied to self-worth. I had the belief that the person working outside the home — their gig was way more important than what's happening in the home. So I sucked up a lot of my feelings about that. I think he was also — I can't put words in his mouth — but I think he saw his dad go do golf leagues, that kind of thing, which is fine if you never travel, but my husband traveled a ton. So doing those extra things, in my human form, really pissed me off. I was a built-in babysitter at times.

Mel: So from the higher perspective, you can see that you needed to go through those things to get here — to begin to really value yourself, your time, your effort and energy. You needed to go through a time where you were, from a human perspective, maybe being taken advantage of — but also recognizing, hey, from the bigger perspective, that was needed. I needed to go through this.

Anne: Right. So now I'm at the point where I'm seeing my worth, or getting closer to it, and letting go of these preconceived notions of what my role was — what I got handed down from society, from parents, all of it. Now I'm ready to accept my worth and move on. But it's like going through the fucking swamp. And it pulls up a lot of shit, which my husband responds to with, "That was 20 years ago, you must have had a horrible fucking life." He gets very defensive. At the same time, I also know it's not my responsibility how he takes what I have to say.

Mel: As a human, even though I know I'm giving Jimmy an opportunity to speak out loud — Jimmy doesn't say a lot, he keeps a lot in, and I give him a lot of opportunity, because I go overboard and he gets really upset — I can see that. But it doesn't make it easy to hear the upsetness. It doesn't make it easier on me to hear it or feel it. Even though he gets to say those things and I get to feel all the feelings — whether I'm being defensive, whether I'm angry at him for saying that out loud, whether my feelings are hurt — regardless, I still get to feel those feelings, and he still gets to say it. He'll say, "I'm not allowed to say any of that." No, please do. Please trigger the fuck out of me. Trigger me all the way, however it feels right for you to say it right now.

Anne: But when your spouse doesn't want to be triggered, doesn't want to feel any of those feelings — there's a part of me that's like, well, I guess I'm on my own. This is just my thing.

Mel: And that's hard. Even as the human who wants to be triggered, I say to Jimmy — he says, "I can't say that." No, that's not true, please say it. It's okay to do it, for each of us, even though it hurts like a motherfucker, even though it feels like it's ripping my skin off, even though it's triggering old wounds from my family, my upbringing, my own worthiness and self-worth.

Mel: This weekend we had an experience. I've given my husband a lot — I am a freewheeling rough rider, a free bird. Jimmy is stability. I've done a lot of things in our life that have caused trouble — human trouble, in our marriage, with our kids, with our finances. Because I've always believed I am fine, we're fine — no matter how bad it gets. And now, even though I really don't want to cause trouble, it doesn't feel as fun to go as far as I used to go in the naughtiness, in the lack of responsibility — because Jimmy's always been overly responsible for all of us.

Mel: This weekend I was expressing that I do recognize the pain and trouble I've caused, because I've really enjoyed a lot of the nonsense — in the moment, it was fun. And when it created problems, I'd say, "It'll be fine, just roll with me, Jimmy, just let it go, just roll with me." Well, he did — for a lot of years he suppressed his own feelings about the trouble I created for him to roll with. He doesn't want to fucking roll anymore. He's all done rolling.

Mel: So I was saying this weekend, I can see all the ways I've changed — I asked him, can you see them too? And he said yes. And I'm so thankful — I came out of my skin. We were with friends, and they watched me come out of my skin. Like I was a bear about to attack him. He actually jumped out of his chair. Our friends were watching and said, "Do you have any idea what you looked like? You looked like you were going to murder him." For what? Because he was thankful that I've changed to make life easier.

Mel: And in me, I was like — I am so tired of my whole life being told I need to change to make life easier for everyone around me. Even though I do appreciate the changes I've made so I'm not making life harder. Does that make sense? But when he said it, it was so fucking hard, even though I expected it.

Anne: I was talking about getting a side job, something with my own hours, and Tony was super excited about it — and the second he showed excitement, I was like, you can stop, because that makes me not want to get a job at all.

Mel: I'm out. I'm not doing anything you want me to do. If that makes you happy, I'm not doing it. Fuck off.

Anne: And I know that's a thing within me. I want to do it because I want to, not because it would make you happy. I want it on my terms, not yours, and how it makes you feel. That's why there's resistance.

Mel: Even if it makes you happy, please shut the fuck up. But also — I'm so glad it does make you happy.

Anne: Yeah, tell everyone else how happy you are. He's my best friend, my person. And I think I've always wanted to take our relationship beyond the surface, and share with him — and of course you get triggered that I'm happy I changed. I wish we could have it where he didn't take it as such an attack. Because that's what he goes to — "I thought we had a great life." I'm not saying we haven't. I'm saying these things are coming up for me, and this is how I feel. It's not an attack on you. I get that you feel like it is.

Anne: Would I be excited to hear him say stuff like that to me? Maybe not, but we could have a go at it. Let's fucking scream it out — I don't really give a shit, because I want to move through it. Once I feel it and move it through my body, we can get past it. But he shuts down. Last night I'm talking to him about stuff that's come up, and he shuts down, and then it's like I'm beating a dead fucking horse — what's the point? So I leave, and more shit keeps piling on. I know he's already feeling guilty about the other things I've said — or maybe he's not, I don't know what he's feeling, he doesn't really tell me. He's a Libra, doesn't like confrontation. It's hard for him, obviously. But I can't even talk to him about it. Who knows what it'll be like tonight when he gets home — he likes to use "you're mad" as the reason we don't talk. Which half the time I'm not even mad.

Mel: But even if you are — that doesn't mean we don't get to talk about it. Even if I am mad, we could still have a conversation. This is the second recourse to our other podcast about loving our partners and how challenging it's been to awaken while they're still mostly living in the real world.

Anne: Well, it's like — I'm always admitting my faults, or seeing things differently, taking responsibility. Of course I want to blame him for some of it, but I also know it was me, that I thought I needed to do the thing I did. So I know it's me, not him. But there's still a part of me that wants to say, "And you did this, you motherfucker." But is that helpful or not? I don't really know. I guess it's the whole pyramid of emotions, getting from one to the next. Of course there's going to be some fucking rage there.

Mel: For sure. I said for a long time — when Mel is finally capable of accepting your rage for the messes I've made, then you're going to finally be able to share them. I really appreciate every time we've gone to an energy reader and they talk about Jimmy's throat chakra being clogged, and I joke, "We want it open" — but actually, no, let's keep that one closed for a minute, because when his throat chakra opens I'm going to lose my head.

Mel: When Jimmy's finally ready to say the things he's been bottling up, I'm going to be ready too, even if it hurts — because I love myself so fucking much, I think I'm one of the most fun people I know. I'll meet people who are supposed to be fun, and I'm thinking, you ain't got no fun on me. I look at all the ways I bring levity, enjoyment, and pleasure to our family and our life. But if I was married to myself, we would never have had a home, never had a vehicle. There's no way we could have survived together. I needed someone to balance me out. Jimmy finds my fun and joy awesome sometimes, and there's a lot of me he's thankful for — and there's also parts of me that have made our life harder. I don't feel guilt or shame about that anymore, but I do feel sad that I brought this man I love a lot of discomfort, a lot of extra effort to keep us stable.

Mel: So when he is able to say things, I know I'm ready. I think for him — he's suppressed a lot too, but he does say things now sometimes. He actually tells me no now. That is huge — for the first 20 years of our marriage, Jimmy did not tell me no.

Anne: Which is huge. I think it's also made it easier for him to say no to you, because you know — from therapy — that sometimes you gotta be told no.

Mel: Sometimes I gotta be told no. And as someone who's resisted that my whole life — I have ADHD, and when I was tested, I have almost zero impulse control, which explains a lot. I was literally climbing out the classroom window to go get donuts. The teacher said, "You can't do that." No, no, I'll be right back, I'll bring enough for all of us. That's a snapshot of my whole existence, and Jimmy's over here just trying to keep us afloat.

Mel: And I guess we're mirroring each other, because now that I'm here, I can see all the trouble. I no longer have shame and guilt about it, but I do feel sad for the trouble I've caused our family, caused him. I still have a hard time with him being glad I've changed to make it easier. But I do think I still need to hear it.

Anne: Last night it brought up his family, which of course is hard for him to hear. Once we were done — because I knew he couldn't take hearing any more — I went outside and thought things through, because that's how my brain works. There's peace with the family, sure, but then it kind of dawned on me: he's always put them above our family, because he never wants to tell them no, feels like he owes them so much. So he'd make it a priority — going and doing whatever, and we'd stay home, with whatever reasoning. I was the stable one down here, so he didn't have to worry about the kids, knew I'd deal with them, but he'd go do this because he never wants to tell them no. I know that's not the whole truth, there's more to it — I probably jumped the gun talking to him before all of it had settled for me. But it doesn't make what I said not true in my eyes. He sees some of it, I think. It's hard working through stuff, and a lot of ours is with family — that's a huge part of why I came here. My astrology chart, the houses, most signs are in marriage and family. So obviously I came here to work through a bunch of that. Thanks a lot.

Mel: I'm going through it and it's really hard. I can also see how all of it was for me — I needed to see how far I could get pushed down before finally Annie says, I deserve better, I'm worth more than the bottom of the barrel, more than being treated second fiddle to your family of origin. Our family is at least equally as important, and I am ready now to claim my spot, worthy of all the attention I desire. There's the human part you have to go through, because we came here on purpose. I'm sure some came here to be masters, but the rest of us were here to have the experiences, to have the feelings — and when we're ready —

Mel: I'll say, for years I wasn't ready. I think I said in a different episode I was extraordinarily selfish. It's okay. Jimmy had to get to the place where he was ready to say, "That's enough, you need to act a little more like an adult, you're not actually a toddler." Even now, sometimes I feel like a toddler, and he'll say — hey, Anne, you're in your 50s, I love you, I love that you feel toddler-ish and want to play, but could you please call the house insurance today? You've been saying you're gonna get on that.

Anne: But you're supposed to do it, because you're stability.

Mel: But I am stability too — I'm going to work all day. There are some things it does feel like he's supposed to do, because whenever I try, even trying my best, I fuck it up six ways to sideways.

Anne: Right. You know, when things fall apart — that's something we've noticed. It's either not the right time, or it's not for you to do. If things don't work out, if there's obstacle after obstacle, it is not for you to do. Or maybe it is, but maybe today ain't the day.

Mel: That's right. So we had an experience — I do have the pleasure now to often hear, "don't do that." We're going through an experience with Jimmy's dad. His dad was sick and we had to move him out of his apartment, or at least that's what it looked like we needed to do physically. And at the same time, their mom died. So not only did their mom just die, but now their dad is also very sick, and as we're handling her affairs, we're also handling his. It was a lot. I knew — I knew — I was not to muddle in this. This was not for me. But I've spent so much of my life fucking off and fucking up that when I do get an opportunity to be helpful — which, if I were writing this, I'd put in parentheses, "which normally means I'm gonna fuck up more right here, this is when you know" — but the family was in this stall. We felt like this thing needed to get done, wanted it to get done, but couldn't muster the energy. And Mel's over here on her ADHD meds — "don't you worry about me, I can handle all of that."

Mel: So to be helpful — because for so long the helpfulness I've done has only been to show people what not to do — when I felt like I was going to be helpful in a way that was helpful in the moment, I thought I'd go start packing. It was a Saturday, Jimmy was home, and I said I'm going. He said, you could wait for me. The fuck I'm not, I don't know how long you'll take, I'm going now. My spirit-led right ear is going, "I'm driving to the apartment" — and the whole time I'm joking to myself, boy, are you in for a doozy. Drove there, got in, started packing everything up. How unhelpful is that? I was packing stuff, isn't that helpful?

Anne: It's like when you helped keep the kids so your daughter could do the thing, and then your back went out. You should start listening to that ear, baby.

Mel: I should. So in this experience, where I decided not to listen — cracking jokes the whole time about what I was going to go through — I'm going against everything I know I should be doing right now, but I want to appear helpful. Which is a real problem, because sometimes wanting to appear helpful looks like it might be, but in truth — it's not. I finished, don't know what time, midday, went home. Jimmy and I were like ships passing in the night — as I'm coming home, he's going there. He gets there, has a conversation with dad about all the ways I packed things up. Everything I did that day needed to be undone. Every fucking thing. I spent the whole morning and early afternoon boxing everything — and for whatever reason, the way I did it, the energy of it, I was pushing, wanted this shit done, tired of it looming over us, this heavy wet blanket I wanted out from under. So I did it anyway, even knowing.

Mel: Turns out Jimmy had to spend the rest of the day undoing everything I did. The only thing that actually stayed was the boxes — I did tape those. Everything else had to be undone and redone the way it needed to be done. Sometimes I correct too far — I've been a fun-loving gal for so many years that every now and then I try to get some work done, and I'll break something, break someone, something's probably gonna get broke. Instead, maybe I could have been more soothing at home — remind him it's fine that it's taking the time it needs. But instead I jumped too far to "I'll just get it all done" and fuck it all up so you can correct it later.

Mel: One time Jimmy asked me to pay a bill online, and I paid it twice. "Hey, I paid the phone bill," and he goes — there you go, we're caught up. For next month. And I paid $300 on a credit card that was already paid, so now there's a credit sitting there. That's cool, right? Girl math. So sometimes now I actually do say — I don't think that's for me. I'm hearing a "tut tut," I don't think that's a good idea. And then I say, but I would really like to be helpful — if that's not for me to do, what's something else I could do that would show I want to bring fun and excitement into our lives, without bringing us trouble? That's taken a long time, and there were a lot of instances where I overcorrected, because some of it was done out of guilt, some of it was just "let's get it moving," but some of it was guilt. I swear, every time I've tried to earn money for our family, I've ended up costing us more. I don't know how that's possible, but it seems to fucking be.

Anne: That happened to me too, delivering the weekly flyer when we were in Tampa. I thought I was being helpful, but then you have to use the car, wasting gas — it wasn't worth any of it.

Mel: It was a deficit more than a positive. I've done that too. I've said, hey, if I'm wrong and meant to go get a job, if I'm wrong about this, I'm willing to do something different — show me a different way, show me the way that's for the highest good of all. Jimmy's open enough now to hear me say, "I'm asking Spirit for an open door, I'm not just going to jump because I think it's a good idea, I'm going to wait for an open door." Case in point — my tooth. This is absurd. A year ago I knew something was wrong with it, knew I should have it pulled, but it seemed silly — it's an important tooth, if I pull it I'll need an implant, and our insurance doesn't cover that well. Seemed like a bad idea. So I got a root canal and a crown instead. Had relief for maybe a minute, and then I had a problem, and I knew it — kept saying I shouldn't have done that. In the end I had to get the tooth pulled anyway, and I'll need an implant anyway. And now, to add insult to injury, my mouth — the whole left side — is numb, and it burns.

Anne: I think we're mirroring each other. You're like Tony, I'm like Jimmy. I've always seen that, but it's more apparent now. The difference is you're also willing to see it — it hurts, but you're open to hearing it. Took a while, but I have a little hope. But there are times, like last night, where I wonder if our marriage is going to survive this. It's almost like the door is shut, or partially open. And that to me is super sad. I do kind of wonder — is this going to be a tipping point?

Mel: For me, back in the day, the reason I wasn't able to hear it was because I hadn't worked through my own guilt and shame over the trouble I caused. I wasn't ready to work through that piece. And I'll say, from Jimmy's perspective — he's a non-drinking alcoholic, hasn't had a drink in twelve years, and he can't yet own up to the difficulties that created in our family. He just hasn't worked through his own guilt and shame yet, and that's okay, that's where he is. But there are times we'll be watching a show about someone's alcoholic nonsense, and it's funny to me — it's not a show he can watch, because even though Jimmy wasn't that far into it, there was some there, and I can see there's a place in him he hasn't been able to fully feel yet.

Mel: Like you said earlier — sometimes I get so frustrated I'm always the one doing the work. I'm over here going, alright Spirit, show me where I could change, how I get to grow, how to be the best version of me right now, open the doors I need to see what I'm not seeing clearly. I want to experience everything my soul came here to experience, even the parts that aren't Mel's version of fun. I want that more than I want a yacht — that's fun, sure, but what I really want is to be the fullest I can be in this human form my soul came here to create.

Anne: I get tired of being the one apologizing to make him feel better — like it has nothing to do with you, it's just easier to blame you. And my human self is like, fuck that, I want to blame you, it feels better to blame you than to look deeper. But I'm so tired — sometimes I do it to squash it so he doesn't have to feel whatever it brought up in him. So then I'm apologizing, whatever, whatever, and that gets old. I'm willing to admit that from the higher perspective, it doesn't have anything to do with him — he was giving me the experience, and aren't I fucking grateful. But my human self is like, you motherfucker, you caused me this pain and now I'm having to work through it.

Mel: Even this weekend, when I say I'm so glad I've changed, what I don't say — because I don't think he's ready to hear it — is, "and you were asking for that, motherfucker." I can see the higher perspective, that you were getting everything you needed to get to this point. So there's a piece of me that thinks I'm better than he is right now — I don't say I'm sorry, but I can say I acknowledge the part I played in making this lifetime hard for you. And what I keep to myself is, "and bitch, you should be thankful for me" — but he's not there yet. Maybe that's my own ego, thinking I'm able to handle it and he's not.

Anne: But that's the thing — what you just said, him not being ready — that's why I have to work through this on my own, because I can't go to him without him taking it so offensively, feeling like I'm poking him, which maybe I am. So I have to work through all this on my journey, and it's like — why do I have to swallow it? My solar plexus last night was so tight and inflamed, I had to go say the thing.

Mel: Don't you think that's you following what feels right in your body, not just your head — the pressure, the energy telling you to release it, let the chips fall where they may? Whether or not it looks right, if you can feel it in your body, it's time to let it out. I'm sorry if that's hurtful for another person, and it's unfortunate that it's hurtful to him, because of course you love him and want him to be that best friend in the moment — and he's not there yet, and that's okay too. But it doesn't mean you don't get to say the things that are needed, whether he acknowledges it or not, or even whether you do. It's not the point. You let it go — did you feel any relief?

Anne: Some, but I feel like I stopped before I was completely done, because I was worried about his feelings. Then I got on the rods, got my messages, and it was about being in the flow, not needing to know where it's going, just being in the flow of the energy and the release of it. That felt like confirmation — that was what I needed to do, that I did listen.

Mel: There's a thing about being too spiritually inclined — that's for me on my own to handle. Whenever I think, "I probably fucked that up, if I were really conscious I wouldn't have done it that way" — well, I'm human, and in my humanness, right or wrong, this is where I'm going and this is what I've got to do. I try to trust that Spirit's got our backs, even in a rough or unpleasant patch — there's going to be peace on the other side of it, and sometimes peace inside of it, not always.

Anne: What he'd like is for us to get along all the time, hunky-dory, all is well — that's his hope. When he was out of work and I was going through finding my voice and working through other things, there was a lot of us not talking — for two weeks, then good for a bit, then back to two weeks. He holds a grudge — "all that time off and all you wanted to do was fight." I didn't think it was fighting; part of it was to wake him up, because I'd usually be the one who ices things over so everything looks fine on the surface, while underneath I'm a brewing cauldron ready to bubble and boil.

Mel: Why do you have to be the one to silently suffer? I don't know that there's ever a time we should silently suffer. You have silently suffered — it's unnecessary. Say that. Even someone who can come across kind of harsh, I've stopped myself from going further, not wanting to be overly hurtful when it's already hurting. But I think it's the same pattern you've been working through — I deserve to also feel good in this relationship.

Anne: It is, a lot of it. As he's bringing it up, I'm thinking — but look how much better our relationship is for it. I can look back and wish we were at this point sooner, but that was a year ago, and things would look different. But like I said before, with him not working, it was my opportunity to work through a bunch of this. If he'd been working, I'd probably be back where I was, and I don't want to go back there. But I do get it — it's fucking awkward living in the same house as your spouse, avoiding each other. Finally he'd tell our kids, "your mom's mad." How would he even know if he hasn't talked to me — he's making up a story in his head, wants me to believe it's always me jumping to conclusions, which I'm willing to admit I do — it's a protective mechanism, gearing up for the worst case. But he's finally gotten better at coming to me before it hits the two-week mark.

Mel: Well, that's progress. I like to think I'm not dead yet, so there's more to go — even when I think I'm getting close to the end of something, don't worry, there'll be something on the other side of it.

Anne: There always is. The second you think you're done, the universe loves to throw something else at you — are you really through it? Are you really? I still feel a little twinge there.

Mel: They really do enjoy doing that. But when you're going through it, you recognize it easier, it doesn't take as long to see you're in the same pattern. I'm having this experience with my mom — I've been hesitant to cut myself off from her, not completely, but it doesn't trigger me as much as it used to, because I'm more evolved than that. I always thought when you're spiritually awake you should be able to handle almost anything. And now I've come to the conclusion — yeah, actually I can, and I don't want to. Period. I just don't want to. Nobody triggered me like my mother — I'm sure that's true for a lot of us with our parents. Being in the same room with her for an hour, I'd be a basket case. Now I can get through it, have been able to for a while — but she pesters me incessantly, even when it's framed as "I was just checking in to say good morning." I can feel the energy of what that is — you tugging on me. This is graphic, but if you're a woman who's used a tampon, that pull when it comes out — that tug. That's the energy on me.

Mel: I can look at the texts — yesterday I got twelve missed calls, and when she can't reach me she tries our daughter, sometimes my husband. Finally yesterday I was like — I'm fine, it's fine, but I just don't want to. Why do I have to continue in a relationship where, when I've asked, "please don't reach out during this weekend away," it doesn't go that way? I have other siblings, she could reach out to them. I turned the ringer off so it doesn't chime every time. Finally last night I realized — I actually don't have to, just because I can now manage it.

Anne: Right, it doesn't mean you have to tolerate it.

Mel: Doesn't mean I have to. Why? I don't want to. There's a thing about this spiritual awakening process — seeing that we're better or higher or more, and we should be able to handle it better, higher, or more. I think it came up because you thought you should be able to handle your feelings on your own. Why — because he's gonna feel bad? Okay, and it's not that your intent is to inflict pain on him — it's to work through it, for you, maybe for him, but certainly for your relationship. So who says holding it to yourself is the right way?

Anne: Well, I think in reality it creates a bigger gap — not sharing it means our relationship doesn't grow. If I keep it all to myself, he stays completely shut off, and I'm not looking for surface-level bullshit. I can take it to an extent, but that's not what I'm looking for. I want real — open, sharing our shit, sharing our feelings. And I think it's funny — being angry is the easiest emotion to share. Showing your vulnerability is fucking hard. That is hard. It's so hard. That's why there are so many pissed off people — it's so much easier to share your feelings in anger and rage than it is to share yourself crying.

Mel: For sure, I agree. And then Jimmy gets annoyed when I want to look at the energy underneath it — what do you think that experience is for? He's like, for fuck's sake. I've gotten to the point where I can actually say, "I feel kind of sad — isn't that enough?" And yeah, now that we're there, I appreciate it, I'm glad we are. Thank you for sharing that you're sad. Can we look underneath what that sadness is from, where it's coming from, why it's there? It is annoyingly exhausting. I can also barely have a conversation about real life — real life is just really a challenge, it's almost like I can't.

Anne: The state of the world — you've stopped watching the news completely, I've started watching TikToks, I've got a guy on there I really like, not mainstream media. And I'm like — these people had to come here, they have a thing they're supposed to do, we're all supposed to be growing with it. But in my human head, are we done yet? Can we stop this madness? I feel like we're in a tunnel of just crazy. And then I go back to understanding they came here with their purpose, we all came here to experience and go through this together, we all claimed to come in at this time — and it's just like, my God, if I was somebody on the street listening to this bullshit, I'd think, what the fuck, she's a fucking nutter. There's real pain, people truly affected by stuff, and I feel for them — but then there's that other side, well, they must have signed up for that too, and I think, God, that's so fucking nuts.

Mel: I don't think it's a good idea to say that to anyone in the middle of an experience. Sometimes my daughter says, "I just want to feel my feelings right now" — and I don't think, in the middle of something, it's for the highest good to point out, "I think you came here to experience that, sweet girl, sweet boy — have you checked the energy underneath there, what's going on beneath the surface?" I don't think that's very helpful. I do say — when you pass people on the street who are unhoused, looking for cash — I find it interesting when I do want to open my wallet and when I don't, and I trust that energy. I'm a generous person mostly, and when I'm not being generous, I'm curious about that.

Anne: There was a guy at the shopping center, lots of homeless in the city next to us. He had a dog. I don't know why, but I had to turn around, get dog food out of the car — I'd just been to the pet store, had dog food and treats — gave those to him and gave him money. I don't know why. But other times I feel like I should be generous, the whole manifesting thing, and then I think I should not have given them a goddamn nickel.

Mel: I trust that now. I trust my intuition on that — when I have the impulse to give. Anytime I notice a "should," I pause. There's something there. I do try to consider not going against those things, and when I do — like helping at dad's place — I sort of gear up, like, alright motherfuckers, let's see what we've got going on today. And I wonder, did I just manifest that bullshit? I'm at the point now where I don't even care — I just try really hard to hear the subtle voice that says, "you should do that," or "you should really pause," and go with it. Whether it's driving around giving out everything I just bought at the pet store and then having to go rebuy it all, or not — I trust that whatever that energy is, it's right.

Anne: One thing we did learn is that some people did come here to be unhoused — not all, but for some, that's part of their path. You want to say, are you kidding, my human heart hurts for them. But we've been told that.

Mel: It can be both. I think part of this is holding both. Some readings and energy look-ins we've done — I've said to Spirit, I think you made some fucked-up choices here that need to be corrected. As a human, looking at it, that's bonkers, bananas, a bad idea from my human perspective. And I don't have the vast, expansive knowing of all — that's not who I am, I'm just a girl living in the world. But I do think it's our job to hold both. I'm all about natural consequences — meaning Spirit is going to arrange experiences for you, period, whether you want it or not.

Mel: And even within the manifesting culture — I gave one reading, you weren't there, Annie, I don't know if I ever told you — where this woman could manifest whatever she wanted. When I touched her energy, I opened my eyes and asked, do you know what you can do? Do you notice you get whatever you're thinking about, whatever you desire? And she said yes. It didn't feel like there was a hard time coming up behind it. We've given many other readings, independently and together, where there was way more discomfort intentionally built in from the soul's perspective — some of it karmic. Many more of those than the "manifest whatever you want" kind. So I'm sure that exists more than once, but for most, I wonder if you're just creating a different road — if you came here to experience something, you're going to experience it, this lifetime or the next.

Anne: There was a quote that hit me, and I got some confirmation on it — you might not always hit the mark of what you ultimately came to do, but if it's meant for you, it will find you. You might want it today, but if it's not the right time, it's not going to be today. Whatever you put out there before you came, it's coming, one way or another.

Mel: It is coming. That's why I no longer feel like when we first started — I want to achieve my soul's purpose. No — I just need to lay around, do what feels right, keep moving with the flow, find the energy flow. It's coming for me, coming for you. It used to drive me crazy when my mom would say this, because she didn't work much after my dad divorced her — couldn't make enough to justify paying for childcare. I'd say, what, you think something's just going to land on your door? And she'd say yes, that's what will happen. And damn if it didn't happen. It was bananas how that shit worked out for her — and this was back in the seventies and eighties, we never heard "manifest" as a word back then. It was just, shit is coming for you, period, you're not going to derail that.

Anne: But I think the big thing is society taught us you gotta push, push, push, work hard — and that's not accurate either. You can push all day, but if it's not the timing, if it's not for you, it isn't coming.

Mel: If it's not for you, it's not coming, period. You could try your all your might, it can look absurd on the human level why it's not working for you — but it's not. Well, that's Ernie — I think our time here is done.

Anne: I agree with Ernie.

Mel: All right, friends, I'm Mel.

Anne: I'm Anne.

Mel: Don't forget — if you're enjoying our version of nonsense, hit that follow button so you get an update. New releases Tuesdays, occasionally Thursday if the episode plays off the back of the last one. See you next time.

Anne: Bye.

Mel: All right, have a great one. Bye.